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Jedi is balanced
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Jedi is unbalanced

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Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2018, 12:23:48 AM »
 

MatiasHogden

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Your own 10 kills in a single map side yesterday should be testament to that.

There was no Jedi on yesterdays event.

I know, you said that you wanted troopers to be better, i replied with that they are. Seeing as you did good as a trooper.
And there were padawans, bit of the same only weaker.
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2018, 02:25:41 AM »
 

Ianitori

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I know If you stick with your team and work together you can kill a Jedi. I am saying this shouldn't be this case. Jedi shouldn't be able to just press right click and push forward without any consequences. It has no weak point. It has mobility, It has a defence against bullets and they are best in melee. They should work with their team more than they go on a killing spree and the only way to make this happen is limiting Jedi's ability to kill troopers. If you nerf their force counter or a cooldown on force jump they can't push alone.

Jedi can't push forward without any consequences, Grenades and rockets have the same train of thought - Jump and move or get damaged. Either way they are weakened for a time
If a jedi can go on a killing spree i go back to my opinion that the troopers need to organize better.


If the troopers are truly doing the best that they can do and fighting the jedi properly. In my opinion as both a jedi and trooper player. It will be hard to push alone past 4-5 troopers.

Also your argument is all over the place akreal, you say that you want jedi to be equal to troopers in melee, then say how the troopers get shot if they try to attack the jedi, but then you say that jedi are so powerful they can push on their own? Which scenario is it? Is the jedi alone or with a squad of troopers at their back?
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2018, 10:30:59 AM »
 

Neyth

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It should be a challenge to fight against a Jedi. Jedi shouldn't be taken out easily. What would be the point in having them? I killed 2 Jedi (idk 1 was Padawan?) yesterday on event.
One with a Blaster pistol and the other in melee. The one I killed with a pistol was Peller while we were getting pushed back by him and his troopers.
I managed to give him a headshot when he jumped me. It is a matter of presicion and timing. Troopers need to work together when fighting a Jedi.
That's all I've got to say.
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2018, 01:40:41 PM »
 

Mark

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Let me start by saying that I appreciate that everyone cares so much. But let's not get dragged away in the discussion, the discussion seems to be going nowhere.

Going to say this now: The Jedi are exactly where they should be at this point. While it is true that in some other games force users seem less overpowered, this is not the case in most of them. In games such as Battlefront II Jedi are given a lot of health, a timer, and a lot of damage. They are, in ratio, probably just as strong as Bear Force II Jedi. If not stronger.

Jedi Balance Wall of Text

#1 The Skill Factor
I have played most of the Battlefront games and I have seen Jedi clear entire hallways and rooms without a scratch, you sprint forward mashing the attack buttons and power buttons just to watch entire groups of enemies fall before you, not a lot of skill is required. This means the class is easier to use and will be very strong very fast. Jedi in Bear Force II have lower health than a basic trooper. If you were to walk/jump forward mashing attacks and powers you will die. A single good trooper can kill a Jedi in Bear Force II by either using explosives, out skill with melee or something I see more often, shoot them while they jump. Not to mention they can easily die if they are fighting multiple troops at once that can use grenade launchers, shields, swords or other variables. All in all it's safe to say that Jedi in Bear Force II require a lot of skill for them to be effective.

#2 Balance
If you were to ask me what class I think is the strongest in Bear Force II, I'd answer you the normal trooper. Why? Because they have the most viability, they have an equipment list suited for almost every situation. Besides that, there are more troopers on the battlefield than any other class, most of the times even more than all the other classes played combined. A well coordinated group of troops can easily defeat any enemy in an event especially because the effect of 1 trooper dying is a lot less than other classes. Not to mention that a single, skilled troop can also do massive damage.

Some parts of your argument are very true, Jedi have, individually, more potential impact than any other class in the mod. But in terms of ratio, they don't. Pit 3 Jedi currently in the mod against a team of say 12 troopers that have a normal event set up but without jets, padawans or normal Jedi. I can from personal experience already tell you that they will convincingly lose almost every round. How? Because the 172nd has had that training, I have attended it and played against those 12 troopers. In the end, me, Peller and Megu had individually many, many more kills than anyone on the enemy team. Yet we lost almost every round because the overall impact of troopers is much higher.

#3 Your argument
Applying your suggestions will make multiple things happen:
- More Jedi means more individual potential to destroy teams, if your teams Jedi split up and get picked off 1 by 1 by the enemy Jedi because they stuck together you will get the scenario of 1 team winning because the other teams Jedi are dead even more.
- Increasing melee speed for troopers will effectively make the Jedi useless. The only real way for a Jedi to kill enemies is by slashing them, if individual fights with troopers become even harder, the Jedi might as well be used as a scouting troop.
- Nerfing the Jedi's ability to push by nerfing the accuracy of Force counter is like sending in a tank without ammo that also has gas leaking in the back. It can't really kill anything, 1 well placed explosive will kill it or if you get lucky you can just shoot the leaking gas, making the entire thing explode with just a few shots.

Coming back on the solo pushing without consequences. They can't, I'll name a few scenarios:
- It's a hallway map, not a lot of room for your mobility powers, you get around a corner to be killed by a detpack, a rocket, a melee weapon from either a troop or Jedi. Making you have to stay with your team, absorbing bullets and cleaning up the remaining enemies once you finally get to push.
- It's a very open map, not a lot of unexpected corners so you have free roam to push solo. If you want to push solo it means you are force jumping to get somewhere faster, draining up force. It's open so enemy troops, jets and Jedi can see you from very far away. Troops can freely shoot at you because the chance they will get hit by counter from a distance is very small if they also go back into cover after shooting, draining up even more force. The enemy Jedi however is not pushing solo, he jumps forward every once in a while but stays within range of friendlies that can help him. Making you fall back after not doing what you set out to do with maybe some lost health and having to wait until your force is back. Allowing the enemy Jedi to freely kill your team mates.
- It's neither very open or closed, so you decide to quickly push a flank to scare away the entire enemy team pushing that flank. Most of the enemy team will know the map, and know that you are either on your own or with jets, they're not scared. You don't have any support so they can easily overwhelm you. You will die taking maybe some troops with you but your team will have lost their Jedi and have no flank advantage. Or it will make you retreat, you'll live, but you will have only lost force points.

Final Conclusion
While I very much appreciate your concern for the mod's population and balance I think you are very wrong in this argument. A lot of your arguments contradict what you want to accomplish.

The Jedi class in Bear Force II may seem OP because of it's potential individual impact and the amount of kills you can get. But it has been tested and proven many times over that the impact ratio from a Jedi doesn't differ much from that of another class in Bear Force II.

In the end, every troop in Bear Force II is as good as the player playing them. The mod and all it's included classes (even Jedi) are heavily skill based.

I hope you will thoroughly read this reply before trying to counter the arguments that I named. As well as not picking certain arguments and take them out of context, fully focussing on that specific argument you didn't agree with. Finally I'd like to thank you for reading and understanding that the Jedi will not be nerfed any time soon.

Best regards,
BNS Mark
Lead Developer of Bear Force II
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2018, 04:49:18 PM »
 

Count Dooku

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TL:DR, Jedi is ok and balanced
"If you didn't read the books don't say you love the movies" -Yora from Pingu in The City
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2018, 01:00:17 AM »
 

Owen

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The vision I had from Jedi in all versions of Bear Force since I started playing (My god, isn't it 2015 ?) was always supposed to be an "unbalanced" role. It was a dangerous class to play and to fight against. I always seen it as an elite, but with time and changes, the Jedi play kinda changed, how I mean it is, before, we used to have several jedi fights and jedi teamfights over the time of the battle, as they played a support role and a clear danger for the opponent (the best jedi of each clan could kill at least 5 buds without any problem if not well prepared). This vision of the Jedi was the greatest, only a few elites players could play it clearly, as it was all about personal skill and of course, map knowledge.

Today, the Jedi is only about spamming, rushing, full force power, there is no longer this sentiment of a "vulnerable assassin but powerful", those today can tank easily the team, which makes them good support, but unkillable if not managed by a large group. Making them a tank that kill so easily is not the solution to me.
What I would suggest from my own (and useless) perspective is otherwise to fix their damage by lowering it, or put a larger cost to the force use such as teleport or even force jump : it would make the Jedi less "everywhere ever ready" and more protective and backward, making it again an assassin.
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Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2018, 11:22:42 AM »
 

Mark

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A shame that my final few words on the wall of text were not listened to... It explains and counters all said arguments in the post above.

Spoiler: ShowHide
Quote
I hope you will thoroughly read this reply before trying to counter the arguments that I named. As well as not picking certain arguments and take them out of context, fully focussing on that specific argument you didn't agree with. Finally I'd like to thank you for reading and understanding that the Jedi will not be nerfed any time soon.


Spoiler: ShowHide
Quote
Jedi in Bear Force II have lower health than a basic trooper. If you were to walk/jump forward mashing attacks and powers you will die. A single good trooper can kill a Jedi in Bear Force II by either using explosives, out skill with melee or something I see more often, shoot them while they jump. Not to mention they can easily die if they are fighting multiple troops at once that can use grenade launchers, shields, swords or other variables. All in all it's safe to say that Jedi in Bear Force II require a lot of skill for them to be effective.


Spoiler: ShowHide
This is actually how we used to do it in events, and this scenario is also how rounds usually ended. I forgot to add that in the wall of text.
Quote
More Jedi means more individual potential to destroy teams, if your teams Jedi split up and get picked off 1 by 1 by the enemy Jedi because they stuck together you will get the scenario of 1 team winning because the other teams Jedi are dead even more.


Spoiler: ShowHide
I'd like to refer to the solo pushing scenarios I explained in the wall of text, which explain why force points management is still very important. As well as the fact that Jedi have never really been assassins that had to be careful with troops. If anything the explosives made Jedi be more cautious than ever before. Here is a video where you can see 3 Jedi clean up an entire flank, get hit multiple times and easily keep going (starts at 1m53s):



I just picked these quotes out. But I very much recommend reading my entire reply if you are going to try and name arguments that have already been countered.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 11:26:11 AM by Mark »
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2018, 11:59:54 AM »
 

Ianitori

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Owen you want to lower the damage of jedi so that getting stabbed by a pure beam of energy doesn't kill you? What? Also the cost of teleport is already high enough that nobody uses it in events (If you're smart atleast)
 

Re: Jedi is unbalanced
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2018, 10:54:27 AM »
 

Ares

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pls execute order 66 on these pussies that thing theyre edgy cuz they have a blue sword